What equipment do you use?

Just talk about kJams stuff with each other, describe things you did that worked, talk about your setup, anything that doesn't fit into the other forums!
Brendan
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Brendan »

Yeah, thanks for that feedback on Behringer, i bought a mini mixer for $40 last year and its has been great for home use in my home receiver. I have been looking at their mixers and speaker. I will buy my mixer/ amp separately but when matching speakers and amps, i find it confusing. Do i want the max output on my speakers to be more than the output on the amp? I dont want to blow out the speakers :?

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by dave »

good question! (at least for me, i don't know the answer!)

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Sedge
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Sedge »

Well, experience has taught most of us to be very wary of power ratings, especially on speakers. As I mentioned earlier, JBL speakers are generally over-rated, so if you actually power them according to the rating, they will burn up. Unfortunately, same can go for amps - no matter how official looking the rating data looks, in real life it seems to be only a best guess, and different amps will *sound* louder or softer.

One big thing to remember is to ignore peak power ratings. You really only want to care about RMS power. Any speaker should have peak ability high enough above RMS that you won't blow anything, and you should never even *try* to have your amp generate peak power. Besides, those numbers are even more theoretical, and the actual ability to blow a speaker depends on the heat already present in the coil, and the general condition of the metals. Similar goes for blowing an amp - and most have failsafes against operating too hot.

When looking for your speakers and amp, consider where you are going to use them, or would like to use them. The big factors are the physical acoustics of the venue, and the amount of people that will be there. A room with 10 people in it will react much differently than a room with 100 people, because people act as a damper to sound waves, as well as the ambient noise levels being generally higher. Obviously, outdoor venues are much different than indoor.

For a small venue (think crowd fire capacity less than 100) you won't need much. I use these speakers, which are rated 125W RMS, 250W peak at 8 ohms. They are powered by this amp, which is rated 2x230W at 4 ohms, or 500W into 8 ohms bridged. Now, if someone does the math, you could say that the amp is a bit overpowered for the speakers, but in practice, they have run fine. I've never put the amp past 75%, and it pushes the speakers fine at about 60%. I don't run it in bridged mode. General rule of thumb, though, is to buy an amp that push (RMS, equivalent ohms) twice the RMS rating of your speaker, assuming you're going to run two speakers from it.

If you are looking at a bigger venue, then scale up accordingly. The huge dance club I work at has a massive 80,000 watt system (or that's what they say - I haven't even looked through their amp racks to see what it actually might be). You'll want more power for outdoors too. I've done some outdoor parties, and I'd say my setup is good up to about 75 people - so backyards are in, huge outdoor wedding receptions are having me borrow some additional power. Same goes for large banquet halls.

So, for amp, buy as big as your budget can afford, and keep in mind what connectors are on the back. I like XLR inputs, 1/4" speaker outputs. Banana plugs suck, and Speak-ons are expensive. For speakers, just about any pair of cabinets with a !5" and a horn will do - anything more generally just gets harder to move around, if you are mobile. Read as many ratings and reviews as you can find - you'll learn a lot that way.

Here's what I would buy to upgrade my current speakers - link And they say 400W RMS. I know DJs that have these, and can tell you they will work fine with much less power. Still, I wouldn't mind having 1000W RMS at the amp level, so I'd consider a second amp, same model as I have, run both bridged. Too bad I don't have $600 sitting around!

>>Sedge

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Sedge »

jfbiii wrote:I'm gonna plug my Peavy PR15's for speakers. ...
One other point: make sure you're getting equipment that fits your vehicle. I'm almost currently maxed out in my Galant with the PA in there. One reason I don't have a sub is that I don't have any room left in the car.
Good plug - sorry I left Peavey out. I use a Peavey floor monitor that I like very well. I don't generally like the plastic molded cabinets that Peavey tends to use on their lower end stuff, but that's a minor point. Those speakers retail about the same as the Yamaha ones that I like, not a bad choice.

Very good point on the space issues - for those of us without vans or trucks, space is definitely a concern. People are amazed at how much stuff I can fit in a four door Oldsmobile Alero - but I don't have a sub for similar reasons. I also downsized my rack because I got tired of lifting it in and out of the front seat. If I go get another power amp for the Yamaha speakers and a good EQ, I'll have to go back to the bigger rack, and it will be even heavier.

>>Sedge

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Sedge »

Oh, and don't take my word for it - here's a good PA system buying guide from Musician's Friend.

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Karanight »

It really does depend on the venue. I don't believe there's a single system that will do every venue. I bought a Behringer mixer amp after my Warrior mixer amp had put up with just too much to-ing and fro-ing in and out of venues for the last four years. In all the venues singers noticed that the sound quality had gone down. Shortly after I installed Bose speakers and got myself a new Warrior and the sound quality went through the roof. I then tried the Behringer in all the venues again, and again singers noticed the sound quality was not as good except for one venue where there was no noticeable difference with sound quality. I've also used AKG microphones for a number of years and I'm now using WMS 40 PRO I've found them incredibly reliable, strong and with a clear crisp uncolored sound. They've been dropped, bashed and knocked and they still give out a superb sound. My friend who also has AKG 's told me that an idiot actually put one in a full pint of beer, (he wasn't very happy with the singer and was banned from most karaoke's in town) The microphone though survived and my friend still has it in regular use with no perceptible sound deterioration.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Behringer aren't up to doing a good job, what I am saying is that it depends on lots of circumstances and I have to say I've never heard a Behringer microphone, I might try to get hold of one and give a go. I did try Behringer speakers but I didn't like the sound, my original speakers were a make called Opus, but they only do concert systems now and the Bose are the only speakers that sound anything like the Opus. (also when singers come and see Bose speakers right or wrong, they know I mean business for sound quality)
I'm constantly told that I've got the best karaoke sound that singers have ever experienced but I don't rest on my laurels, I'm constantly looking to improve the whole experience for punters. That is the reason I used Apple when I came over from disc. I think Apple have the best sound output for any computer system (Apple seems to be the industry standard for the music business)
The way I see it is trial and error. I bought bits of kit that I'm not happy with and then sold it on at a small loss after replacing it with something better. It takes time and the sound is subjective to what the hearer hears, so don't think that you'll get perfect sound the first time around, just get a reasonable sound and slowly improve.
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Brendan
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Brendan »

Great info here. I used to play bass, i still have my Peavey 300 combo bass amp. Peavey has a great product as does Bose, no doubt. I just dont want to invest that type of money at this time.
also when singers come and see Bose speakers right or wrong, they know I mean business for sound quality)
I bet those Bose speakers sound excellent, They make great home stereo speakers! I notice with Bose the silence in them is as good as the sound that comes out of them! I want to start out with a Decent amp and Behringer or Kustom speakers. I won't truly know how they sound until i get them home and play them but i can always upgrade the speakers if i stick with it. I went to the guitar center in Sacramento on Saturday and it blew me away, i want it all! :D How would my Bass amp sound as a bass speaker with my system? I might have to try out that AKG or Shure.

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Sedge »

As to the Peavey Combo 300 bass amp/cabinet:

It should have a 15" Peavey Black Widow speaker in it. These are really good speakers, although I prefer the Peavey Scorpion for live sound (and guitar amps)

Using the amp probably won't help you much - it's really meant for bass guitar, not full live sound. It probably won't cut enough highs to make an insta-subwoofer, but between it and the Black Widow, you won't get enough highs to make it a general powered loudspeaker. The big thing it's missing is a big horn!

If you really want to incorporate this into your sound, either find or fabricate a direct input to the speaker (entirely bypassing the amp board) and hook it up to a 300W-500W amp running bridged mono and preferably with a low-pass crossover setting. (I have a cheap American Audio amp that has exactly that, paid about $100 for it) and try running it as a subwoofer.

I doubt you'll really be satisfied with it, and will likely scrap this plan and buy a pro subwoofer, but you brought it up. Also, breaking that out at any live gig will have any audiophiles in attendance turning up their noses at you, unless you give it a clever disguise.

There's my opinion - but like something else, everyone will have one and they all stink. Best advice is try it out, see if YOU like it.

>>Sedge

jfbiii
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by jfbiii »

Also, breaking that out at any live gig will have any audiophiles in attendance turning up their noses at you, unless you give it a clever disguise.
True, but their presence at karaoke makes their "audiophile" bona fides questionable by default. :D
From he to whom much liquor is given...much singing is expected.

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Karanight »

The Bose speakers do sound awesome but you don't need to spend a fortune on them. I use 802 series II and I bought 3 pairs second hand for the price of one new pair. You need to remember Bose speakers are built to last a very long time. If you find second hand ones take the grill off and inspect the cones, any tears and you reject them, then if there are any marks on them you can re-black the outside plastic on them and they then look the business. nobody will know there second hand and you don't need to tell anyone. I think the series II are better that series III but as I said before, the whole sound thing is subjective.
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cfspinner
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by cfspinner »

Brendan wrote:Yeah, thanks for that feedback on Behringer, i bought a mini mixer for $40 last year and its has been great for home use in my home receiver. I have been looking at their mixers and speaker. I will buy my mixer/ amp separately but when matching speakers and amps, i find it confusing. Do i want the max output on my speakers to be more than the output on the amp? I dont want to blow out the speakers :?
It is VERY confusing. When looking at speaker specs, note that the continuous power rating is really the important one. Some speakers have a high peak rating, but their continuous output rating is on the low side. Peak is the max the speaker can handle for very short periods of time. So if you're looking at a speakers specs and don't see a continuous rating, move on!

Here is an example: http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/pr ... sku=580026

This behringer speaker is advertised at 1000 watts. Great. Tons of power. But when you look at the specs in detail, thats peak power! The actual continuous power rating is 250 watts. So if you buy an amp for that set of speakers based on the 1000 watt rating, you would probably get one that put out say 1400 watts per channel. Well, if one speaker is wired to each channel of the amp, you're actually only getting around 600 to 700 watts continuous into a speaker that can actually only handle 250 watts continuous. Over double what the speaker can truly handle continuously. It will Fail

Say you have the same behringer speaker with a 250 watt continuous rating, but your amp is only capable of only 250 watts per channel. With one speaker wired to each channel, your only actually getting around 100 to 150 watts to the speaker. The amp will work too hard to get proper volume levels with clean sound and will start to clip. Continuing this will cause the amp to fail and clipping can damage your speakers also.

Using the same speaker as an example, 250 watts of continuous output, an amp putting out around 700 watts per channel would work nicely. With one speaker wired to each channel, you would have around 300 to 350 watts of available power for each speaker, allowing you to drive the speaker at its full continuous rating without over driving your amp. Overdriving your amp happens when the amp in not powerful enough to drive the speakers at their max continuous rating.

Anyway, once you know the speakers continuous output rating, find an amp that will drive your speakers
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Brendan
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Brendan »

Thanks for helping me understand. I see much clearer now. :D

chbigelow
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by chbigelow »

While I glazed over some of the entries on this thread - there's one piece of equipment that I find indispensable which I didn't see mentioned: a two-channel compressor. If your board has inserts, you can easily use this, probably at a cost of around $100 (I use Behringer compressors). By properly compressing the two singer microphones, you can help smooth out the piercingly loud noises that less experienced singers tend to make in certain situations. A drunk patron can scream as loud as he wants... and it will remain roughly in balance with the music. I spend far less time "riding the faders" since I got compression.

For speakers, I use Mackie SRM450's, and with one setup SRM450V2's (which are awesome, durable, and light... albeit expensive). For a mixer, I run the Mackie DFX-12, which at $250 gives you great pre-amps and decent effects. I also like that it has faders rather than dials. For the price-to-quality ratio, this product has some of the best value I've seen. (I use 3 mono and 2 stereo channels at karaoke gigs... but it's nice to have the flexibility to do rudimentary live sound... say if I'm DJ'ing a wedding and someone brings an acoustic-electric guitar and a banjo; I still have enough channels to handle it without trouble.

What everyone said about the Shure 58's is true. You can get comparable mics for less, but they'll break way easier. In the end you save money and have better sound with the 58's. (I like the switchable Shure PG-58 for my own mic though...)

As for cords, I recommend ProCo. I was pulled in by the "free-replacement" allure of the Monster cables for awhile, but quickly saw the error of my ways, finding that they weren't particularly durable, and that, shockingly, some would not quite fit correctly in my 58's, cutting out when a singer leaned to the left or whatever. ProCo has a mail-in free replacement program, so while replacement isn't entirely free, it's pretty cheap if you wait to have a few busted or malfunctioning cords before you mail 'em in!

Oh and the best deals I've ever seen on stands has been at karaoke.com - I got a pair on-stage stands with a carrying case for $80 (I think). And yeah, while a case isn't necessary, it is nice! I think they run that deal from time to time.

Also - if you are plugging into a large plasma TV (or even a large old-school TV), it'll tend to introduce a buzz to your sound (bigger tv's = bigger buzz). You can cure this with a "Ground Loop Isolator"; I use the Radio Shack version (the ONLY radio shack cord I'll use), which requires an adaptor or two, but which eliminates AC imbalance like a champ (at $25 or $30) *Oh... this is to connect your audio output on your computer to your board, which is the only link between the TV(s) and the sound board. :)

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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by Sedge »

A compressor is nice too - minimizes squeals and hums. I use an Alesis compressor, but it's not at all necessary.
I knew I posted that - must have missed it. I heart my compressor, but have survived without it as well. I think I paid about $125 for it on eBay about 7 years ago.

I paid $79.99 + $9.99 shipping for my speaker stands with case and a pair of 25' speaker cables thrown in - at Musician's Friend, on special.
Here's a link

>>Sedge
Last edited by Sedge on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

futuredisco
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Re: What equipment do you use?

Post by futuredisco »

Equipment wise, I use M-Audio Profire in the studio with G5 PowerMac. For discos/karaoke I use a MacBook with M-Audio Firewire 410. I love the M-Audio stuff. Excellent price and top quality sound.

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